What is the status of this project?

[kawshar]

What is the status of this project?

Hi leaders, I would like to know the decision about this initiative. Shall we continue or you guys decided to abandon this?

Try Demo: https://j4admintest.joomla.com/administrator/ ( hosted in Cloudaccess )
User: abaquzem
Password: AtES4XWw

Find the unofficial build version below to test on your local server.
Joomla_4.0.0-unofficial-khonsu-dev-Development-Full_Package.zip

Thank you

[brianteeman]

based on activity (or lack of) and your statements about not complying with the requirements that were set I assumed that you had abandoned it.

(personal statement)

[kawshar]

Not really. Not getting any clear instructions about what to do or what not to do. Feeling like we are trying to sell our premium products to Joomla. Also, slow approval of PR makes the development process slower.

[brianteeman]

well @marcodings is the project manager for this

[kawshar]

I know.

Btw, I have a question. Please tell me your honest opinion about this initiative. Do you think we should continue or you think we should stop?

If you think we should stop then let me know some points. That will be really helpful.

Thank you

[brianteeman]

My personal opinion has always been that if this template would work along side the current template and offers at least the same features and the same level of accessibility then it has value

[kawshar]

Well, that's not actually a lot of work. It may take couple of days to fix. But, what is the point to keep backward compatibility with Atum? Shipping this template with Atum? Is not it gonna make extension developers' lives disaster?

[brianteeman]

I seriously doubt your time estimates to achieve that based on my observations of the changes here.

Extension devs lives will be a disaster if there are two templates that are not compatible with each other.

It will be harder to maintain two templates as we have seen with hathor and isis but that was mainly because they were not really compatible with each other

[kawshar]

Did not we finish the initiative on time? Did you release the first beta so far? We had some accessibility issues, but we could fix them. However, I would like to know the decision.

[brianteeman]

Did not we finish the initiative on time?

Depends on your definition of finished. From my perspective it is not finished as it didnt meet the requirements.

[kawshar]

We finished the initial development. Atum also did not meet the requirements. It's still not accessible, has a lot of UX issues and UI is really outdated. Look, I am not here to debate with you. What I wanted to know the final thought. If you think this is a good initiative then we will work hard to meet the requirements. But, if you guys think that it's garbage then we will stop putting our efforts and will focus on our daily basis projects.

@marcodings please check this.

Thanks

[brianteeman]

As for accessibility - it is compliant in all but about 3 extreme edge cases. If you know of any others then please let me know

[kawshar]

You guys helped that directly. That's why it's accessible. If you guys just lend a small helping hand, we could get it done in no time.

However, I am waiting for @marcodings reply.

[brianteeman]

I was referring to the accessibility of atum and not this template which is a long long way from being accessible

[kawshar]

Got it. You are awesome.

[kawshar]

I have checked the Atum template again by seeing your confidence. We are in real trouble. I wish Joomla 4 never be a reality with Atum. In fact, Joomla 3 is at least 5 years ahead in terms of UX & modern design. God help us.

[brianteeman]

I am not a designer. I only cared about the accessibility. I have never had an issue with you providing an alternative as long as it satisfied the requirements

[kawshar]

I care about design. People care about design. Great software should have an excellent combination of UX, design and codebase. Joomla 4 codebase is amazing but the design literally is a big disaster. The 2nd most popular CMS in the world should have a competitive interface rather than a totally unprofessional UI.

[imarklee]

Agreed with the points brought up by @brianteeman and @kawshar and I think if the new admin template is able to comply with the accessibility and being compatible, it would be awesome.

In my opinion, before anyone dives in any further, there should at least be clear directions from Joomla as to whether this template is going to make the cut or not.

[b2z]

15% of the world’s population have a recognized disability. Don't make me wrong, I do not say we should not make a11y product. I want to say that the users without disability does not deserve such template like Atum. All efforts are on a11y, but what about the avarage user?

Please, we want something like this https://magazine.joomla.org/issues/issue-nov-2017/item/3289-episode-iv-a-new-user-interface-for-the-joomla-backend

Fresh and modern look. Please think about the avarage user also.

@brianteeman if here all a11y will be fixed why not to drop Atum? It's ugly. Sorry, but it's true.

@kawshar thank you for your job and making Joomla breathe again. Do not give up. You put a lot of efforts in this template. From your side is it possible make Atum look like your template? What's the challenge?

[Hackwar]

@b2z Sorry, but do you think we are all stupid? Do you think we are idiots, who worked on Atum? We worked from the design that you linked and we started with a similar design like Khonsu and guess what? Those designs look nice, but don't actually work. I've invested dozens of hours into features that we later had to scrap, because they are actually as usefull as a noose around your neck. Believe it or not, but Atum is actually a pretty streamlined template with productivity in mind and not just some flashy colors. Atum doesn't look like it does because of a11y, but because it would be a lot less useable otherwise. Likewise with Khonsu. The original design had a split menu system with some items at the top and then the submenu to the side. Then the stuff went all to the side. And then all of that got dropped in favour of the menu system that we have in Atum. Why? Because it would have been horrible the way it was designed for Khonsu.

[brianteeman]

@b2z It was not me that insisted this must be accessible. It was a requirement set by the production department.

Atum doesn't look like it does because of a11y, but because it would be a lot less useable otherwise.

80% of the work I have done to make atum accessible is not even visible and had no impact on the design

[b2z]

@Hackwar no I do not think that you are idiots. Please be more polite.

I know what is to be a volunteer and how it looks to collaborate. I spend many hours on jissues development. And still investing my free time spreading the Joomla love in Russian community. And thank you for spending your time on Joomla.

Those designs look nice, but don't actually work

Is it your personal opinion? Where are the public discussion or something? I just want to understand as everyone else, why not this template, but Atum? Why not to ask public, making some kind of survey? Avarage user does not spent it's time on GitHub. But when @kawshar make his proposal of alternative design in Facebook there were so many positive reactions. This is where avarage user lives - in social media. Ask them what do they like best?

@brianteeman please do not make it personal. I didn't want to feel you so.

If a11y is not a reason, what's the challenge to make Atum not so ugly?

[zikkuratvk]

I agree with @b2z. What you want to use as a basic template is a few steps back in terms of design and usability.

When they introduced the new admin panel concept, I really hoped that maybe they would accept it. But now I understand that the interests of a minority can be put above the interests of the entire community.

This is very sad when, for the sake of features, which should be decided by third-party extansion or taken into account on the basis of the appropriateness of the expended resources, they are ready to destroy ui for all users.

[micker]

@b2z think about this gouvernent site need to be accessible in many country it a law ... say joomla is a11y isn't only for 15% is all person ! joomla traslation "is for all" ... we can't say this and doing a gutherberg editor ...lol
the majority need to understand this to adapt they comportement ... it not to 15% to adapt it ...
i realy think a11y is important feature... not cool feature but ethical ... joomla can participate to change the web...
not bling bling feauture ...

=> all designer at first try axe on your site, after try to navigate with a keyboard only, and try speech browser ... => after you can say a11y isn't a important goal

(sorry for my bad engish)

[brianteeman]

I will repeat that accessibility has not driven the design -

[zikkuratvk]

I will repeat that accessibility has not driven the design -

What influenced?
Now it looks as if the interface was developed by a programmer, not a designer or a specialist in user interface.

[b2z]

@micker I do not say that it is not important. What I want to say, UI and design should not be under the line because of a11y.

And as @brianteeman already stated, a11y is not in charge. So what's the problem then? If a11y is not a reason, what's the challenge to make Atum not so ugly?

[brianteeman]

And as @brianteeman already stated, a11y is not in charge. So what's the problem then? If a11y is not a reason, what's the challenge to make Atum not so ugly?

Not exactly what I said. It has to be accessible but that doesnt mean you can not achieve beauty.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It is also subject to cultural influences.

As for this template specifically. It is really simple. If they had done what they were asked to do (as published here in the readme) then there wouldnt be any issue.

Instead they chose to ignore that, delivered something that didnt work and then expect everyone else to fix it for them.

You only have to look at the 100+ open issues to see that. Heck code changes made have even prevented it from installing on my setup.

Finally the complete absence of @marcodings in managing and guiding this sub-project has completely killed it.

[kawshar]

@b2z The template is already accessible by color contrasts. But, maybe some keyboard navigations missing. Btw, we can make it 100% accessible with the help of the accessibility experts. But, we don't want to spend time and money on the uncertainty.

Please check the below accessibility report.

[zikkuratvk]

You only have to look at the 100+ open issues to see that. Heck code changes made have even prevented it from installing on my setup.

I may be wrong. But they are discussing what is interesting and why people are not indifferent.

[kawshar]

@zikkuratvk we should not discuss anything like that here. Joomla community will be misguided.

Thanks

[brianteeman]

Sounds to me like this was an ultimatum to guarantee to accept your work unconditionally and without agreeing to the requirements. Pretty much what I suspected 4 months ago. Good luck for the future.

[kawshar]

@brianteeman pretty much what you promised to yourself 4 months back.

[impressionestudio]

I believe that many don't understand in how much critical situation is Joomla 4 with Atum.
I wish, for my own good and the future of Joomla, that I'm wrong and that Joomla will survive with Atum.

[brianteeman]

@kawshar not at all which is why i invested my time to test it and post over 50 issues. I only stopped because they were not being addressed. Anyway no point continuing - good luck for the future

[brianpeat]

@brianteeman your issue posts haven't gone unnoticed. I want to thank you for putting so much time into it up to this point.

[kawshar]

@brianteeman you can wish luck but there is no future with Joomla 4 & Atum. If I want to be more realistic, Joomla needs to redesign the frontend template too.

[alikon]

what a shame, no one here is a winner

you: cause you don't want to fulfill the requirements that was crystal clear written from the start (like a contract) i hope you don't do the same with with your paying clients

we:
cause we have gived you full endorsement and trust, and we have been used like the silly people to blame to cover your back for your epic fail

[ali-95]

Я обычный пользователь JOOMLA, а не разработчик и не имею понятия в этом, но мне тоже не понравился шаблон CASSIOPEIA, я не понимаю в разработке ничего, может он и идеален для разработчиков, но 2020 году предлагать такие шаблоны, ну вы извените меня.....

I am a regular JOOMLA user, not a developer, and I have no idea about it, but I also did not like the CASSIOPEIA template, I don’t understand anything in development, it may be ideal for developers, but to offer such templates in 2020, well, you will excuse me .. ...

[impressionestudio]

@brianteeman you can wish luck but there is no future with Joomla 4 & Atum. If I want to be more realistic, Joomla needs to redesign the frontend template too.

I totally agree with the front-end template redesign.

[kawshar]

@alikon your ego is the winner here. Can't you see that? You are blaming me that I did not fulfill the requirements. Is it not your responsibility to help the initiative? You could have lot of serious meetings but without doing that you guys started to trolling me from day one.

Elegantthemes website has 3 times more visitors than our Joomla.org. We are keeping our eyes closed and assuming nothing is happening. This is 2020 and we can't ignore that.

[brianteeman]

Is it not your responsibility to help the initiative?
yes it is and we did

[kawshar]

@brianteeman we saw that. Thank you.

[alikon]

Staffing the project ( during both creation and maintenance) is the responsibility of the team taking the initiative. Unfortunately Production Department is short on staff for completing J4 as is.

yes again clear statement completlly ignored

[Pantaleaogc]

Good afternoon people,

Well, I'm Geronídio, for sure, nobody here knows me.

I'm just a self-taught enthusiast and passionate about Joomla.

In this way, I believe that what I am going to talk about has impartiality regarding the debate that is taking place.

I don't know anyone, my interest is that Joomla can improve and that all the millions of people who use it can benefit.

So, initially, let nobody take what I am going to say.

So we have a question to decide.

Use Tuna or ke

Before taking any position, why can't you resolve this issue democratically, the most sensible way would be a poll where users could decide, and like me, I would be doing it impartially.

I even wanted to get into some technical aspects, even if I am not a professional in the area, I believe I have enough knowledge to do it, but I will not do it, I am here only as a user.

I know that I am nothing alone, I learned that alone I can go faster, but that together we can go further, however, I kindly ask you to consider these questions presented here as a user, passionate about Joomla and who expects a really new Joomla, prepared for a future where you can compete for a longer time with the choice that will be made at that time.

In addition, to conclude, let's calm things down, I believe that everyone here will lose if Joomla cannot leverage again.

[kawshar]

@alikon I have a recommendation for you. Please watch the Silicon Valley TV series, especially the episode where developers designed the Pied Piper app.

Same with your paying clients
I talk with them continuously. I am never scared of talking to the users who are the source of our business. Not like you that don't care to take suggestions from Joomla user.

[genr8r]

Any chance we can take a deep breath and go back to this point in the conversation...?
#186 (comment)

I think @brianpeat laid out a good path forward.

[brianpeat]

@genr8r Thanks :)

I'd also add, as much as me and others are worried about the J4 release with Atum, we should assume at this point that Khonshu isn't going to make it into the .0 release. That doesn't mean it's not viable. Either as a stand alone product or as a future replacement for Atum.

Once everyone is okay with that (tempers and opinions and all), I think Khonshu is still very viable and should still be worked on and finished.

[mrownicki]

I write very log post and delete him.

I am tired of this stagnation and constant reminder that I can write something myself.
So we have situations that someone wrote something ... and bounced off the wall.

So what's difficult to check and make corrections to the core. We have many great developers!
Somehow the new router was added.
Additional fields have also somehow been successful.

In last year I predict lost market Joomla. And the worst case scenario come true!
Welcome again to the 2011!
Even if Joomla 4 does not come out this year, it will still lose market share.
Small market share small dotations, lower numer developers.

There is no idea for Joomla development. There is no specific target to which joomla should go. The example of WP is intended for bloggers and it does it great.
Joomla is for what?? Bloger platform ? Shop platform ? We can make simple and complicate site. But this is not target for everyone.
I ask leadership What is feature changer to the joomla 4? Botstrap 4, Media Manager, Workflows or Availability in backend.
Where is the super one feature to the make people want using Joomla not other CMS.

We should focus on faster, simpler and friendlier content creation! This is still a CMS for creating content.

Wake up because at the end of the year it will not be 2.8% but 2.3% and as joomla 4 will appear from Atum and will not offer anything more, 2021 it will be 1.7% and even Drupal, Shopifi will be higher.

Sad day, very sad day for the whole community :(

[conconnl]

Hi All,

I’m not a developer, designer, UX Specialist or whatever. I’m just someone who is spending his free time in the community since it exists and work in a worldwide company with the same kind of questions, but not the issues and unnecessary discussions. Which I see in this thread!

I would like to see that everybody who has something against how this is going do the following things:

• Look in the mirror, a better world can only start at your own accord.
• Don’t blame others but ask yourself “What can I do?”
• Think about the content of the comments and not the tone, emotion or whatsoever.

If this is clear, it would be good to get to the point. “Who should we put in a room, to get to a constructive discussion, where at the end steps can be defined to get somewhere”

I honestly think their is a truth in everything, but it isn’t black and white.
Yes, there are certain rules and requirements like a11y. For this you can’t blame the Joomla Community, the board or whoever in this discussion. As it’s just a Law in many countries, if you want to blame someone, call the governments.

The same is for the design itself, you will never get to the perfect solution (just deal with it). Getting to the next best possible result should not be the problem (as many mentioned).

The moment you get to this level (see the whole thread), you don’t work on the same goal (getting the next best thing), following the rules and requirements, you won’t get anywhere not even in the next 15 years.

Sorry, just looking at the open PRs, the created issues (without a PR), just means we are not getting close to a solution.

Again, in conclusion!
Who do we need to put in a room, to get a nice (not perfect) backend template, which is also a11y?

[rinka88]

@alikon @Hackwar @brianteeman @kawshar
I welcome everyone here. I've been watching the discussion here for several days now, and I remember the Ford vs. Ferrarri movie. Have you all watched it? What I'm thinking about.
Where to win at Le Mans for the first year, the management sends its best car, developed by the Shelby company, without its driver and loses. There, Shelby throws out all the excess from Ford, and implementing their development uluchaet multiple size. But also without violating the principles of the company's image. And where to take the most important questions for the company, to approve the management to go through a multi-level process of bureaucracy.
And the first year loses the race. Then after the introduction of Ken miles, Ford becomes the winner...
And what do we have to lose if the Kaushar team offers to improve the product, Give it some time and we will get the result.
And even IOS, despite its code, looks great.
Well, if you look Xonsy of then the eye pleased and the soul well, than to look at the Atom.
I hope I conveyed my thoughts.

[kawshar]

@rinka88 I will watch that movie. Thanks for the recommendation :)

[kawshar]

Hi everyone, as we got an overall idea that the template will never make it to reality, so I would like to close this issue. Well, I will try to contribute some improvements we made this concept to the Joomla core.

Thank everyone for supporting and believing this initiative. We will try to release this initiative as an open-source project after the release of Joomla 4.

Thank you, good people.

[conconnl]

@kawshar I’m not sure how you got this impression. That a few people complain doesn’t mean that the community and the Joomla organization has this opinion.

The whole reason why I asked who we need to put in one room.
I’m sure that everybody (certainly if we open it for voting) want a combination of an a11y template which also look good.

Your template looks good but is maybe not fully a11y (I’m not a specialist), the other template is maybe more a11y but looks worse.

@marcodings what can we do to make it happen?

[brianteeman]

For what feels like the hundredth time. Accessibility is not the main problem!!!!

[kawshar]

@brianteeman I agree with you.

[brianpeat]

I'll reiterate what I believe the issues are:

1. It's very likely you won't be able to complete it in time for the 4.0 release. If you do, great, if not, it would have to be added in a later release.
2. Either you need to remove the custom core modifications, or work with someone to get them submitted as PRs back into the core of J4. This also might delay the release, but it does NOT mean it couldn't be done in a later release.
3. It very likely wouldn't be the only admin template, and Atum will probably still be the default (though I hope Atum can be made to look better without breaking stuff). And it doesn't NEED to be the default template. It's still OKAY if it comes later and then people decide it should be the default. Seriously, this is an okay thing, even though it might seem like it should be there from the 4.0 launch.

Set aside your feelings and just think about these things. And yes, it DOES need to be accessible, but I don't think that's a show stopper. It might set you back some, but in the end accessibility is where ALL of the web is heading, so you might as well work at tackling that at some point and I'm sure you'll be able to get help with that from volunteers.

Again, I have yet to see a comment in here that says flat out "we don't want this." No one has said that. But there ARE some things you're going to have to deal with if you DO want this to be included at some point. None of this will happen quickly, but I do believe it CAN happen if you'll be patient and work with everyone on it.

And I know there are some who want Atum dumped NOW. I just don't see that happening at this late stage, and I think some css adjustments could probably make it look good enough to be presentable at the 4.0 release. That may hurt the feelings of some of the Atum designers, but we have to be realistic...it's just NOT a pretty template and it's bulky, uses too much space and feels unrefined. A little design love can go a long way honestly without scraping the entire template.

Anyway, now I'm rambling so I'll end this :)