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Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:31:17 - infinisil joined the room
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:31:18 - infinisil made the room invite only.
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:31:18 - infinisil made future room history visible to all room members.
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:31:18 - infinisil has allowed guests to join the room.
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:31:18 - infinisil changed the room name to [Private] Nixpkgs Architecture Team.
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:31:18 - infinisil changed the topic to "Private room for the NAT to discuss member applications and other things that shouldn't be public".
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:32:12 - infinisil invited Robert Hensing (roberth)
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:32:12 - infinisil invited John Ericson
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:32:12 - infinisil invited tomberek
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:32:13 - infinisil invited Growpotkin
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:32:13 - infinisil invited growpotkin ( Alex Ameen )
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 17:33:27 - infinisil: As discussed in todays meeting, a private channel to discuss things like membership applications
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 18:01:21 - Robert Hensing (roberth) joined the room
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 18:03:54 - Robert Hensing (roberth): The topic of responsibility of team members came up in the meeting today. Being present in the meeting seems like a good starting point. Within reason of course
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 18:25:43 - infinisil: Robert Hensing (roberth): I think that in itself can be discussed in the public channel
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 18:35:21 - John Ericson joined the room
Tue, Aug 8, 2023, 23:43:45 - Growpotkin joined the room
Wed, Aug 9, 2023, 01:25:29 - infinisil: We need to review two member applications:
- [@phaer](https://matrix.to/#/!djTaTBQyWEPRQxrPTb:nixos.org/$brvOQaD9LqD-bGpG6O7WfWxZx4RPVcmNJ9hOXeW-vPo?via=nixos.org&via=matrix.org&via=nixos.dev)
- [@DavHau](https://matrix.to/#/!djTaTBQyWEPRQxrPTb:nixos.org/$uso1fsMNDpPwWWRmnHlQgEUvzGZpd47iIbvK66urKQA?via=nixos.org&via=matrix.org&via=nixos.dev)
Wed, Aug 9, 2023, 01:28:18 - infinisil: I'm in favor of accepting both. @room let me also know your judgement
Wed, Aug 9, 2023, 04:13:14 - John Ericson: Sounds good to me. I don't think I know phaer, so not much to contribute to that decision other than a "yes" by default, but I know who DavHau is and definitely support him joining.
Wed, Aug 9, 2023, 07:43:28 - Growpotkin: Phaer seems cool, but I only know him from our WG and the internets. Dave knows him best since he's involved with dream2nix
Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 15:18:49 - tomberek joined the room
Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 15:21:01 - tomberek: I see no reason to say "no" at this point. Accept!
Thu, Aug 10, 2023, 15:58:14 - infinisil: Alright Robert Hensing (roberth), up to you, no pressure :P
Mon, Aug 14, 2023, 06:08:43 - infinisil: Robert Hensing (roberth): Ping ^
Wed, Aug 16, 2023, 19:33:21 - Robert Hensing (roberth): I feel the same. Don't know phaer but I'm sure he'll prove himself (and probably already has done that if I looked into it a bit). 2× Yes from me.
Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 03:03:14 - infinisil made future room history visible to all room members, from the point they are invited.
Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 03:03:29 - infinisil invited phaer
Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 03:03:30 - infinisil invited DavHau
Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 03:14:16 - infinisil: phaer: DavHau: Welcome! Though note that we should use this room as sparingly as possible. Generally everything should be in the public room.
Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 03:15:06 - infinisil: @room I will make use of this room right now for the sake of finding a new time for the meeting, please fill in your availability here until the end of next week: https://crab.fit/regular-nixpkgs-architecture-team-meeting-685936
Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 05:00:56 - DavHau joined the room
Thu, Aug 17, 2023, 09:41:23 - phaer joined the room
Sat, Aug 19, 2023, 01:28:51 - infinisil: John Ericson: tomberek: Growpotkin: DavHau: Ping: https://crab.fit/regular-nixpkgs-architecture-team-meeting-685936
Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 04:59:57 - infinisil: <@infinisil:matrix.org "John Ericson: tomberek: Growpotk..."> Again, ping to all of you. It's really not much of a commitment to be in this team, but filling in your availability should be the bare minimum
Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 15:00:20 - John Ericson: I'm sorry infinisil, no excuse. Filled out now
Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 15:02:24 - Growpotkin: Thanks for the ping I'll get it filled
Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 15:04:59 - Growpotkin: aight should be good
Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 15:29:53 - phaer: Thanks! Even though tomberek and DavHau are still missing, we already have only one slit of 1h left where everyone so far is available - Tuesday 3PM CEST
Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 15:44:33 - DavHau: Sorry for the delay. I lost track of things during the camp. Thanks for the reminder. I filled it out now.
Wed, Aug 23, 2023, 20:26:40 - tomberek: entered
Mon, Sep 4, 2023, 17:27:23 - Robert Hensing (roberth) changed their display name to roberth
Mon, Sep 4, 2023, 17:28:09 - roberth changed their display name to Robert Hensing (roberth)
Tue, Nov 28, 2023, 15:03:06 - phaer left the room
Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 23:29:40 - infinisil: @room I'm scheduling another merge party in ~1-2 weeks, this time for https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/pull/275539! Please consider joining and filling in your availability [here](https://crab.fit/making-pkgsbyname-mandatory-for-new-packages-908672). We'll decide the date/time in the regular NAT meeting on Tuesday
Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 23:34:01 - tomberek: I've not been reviewing new additions to Nixpkgs recently so I don't know first-hand....... has by-name gotten good reception from first-time contributors?
Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 23:34:45 - infinisil: tomberek: Definitely yes! I've heard only good things :)
Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 23:35:05 - infinisil: Oh, we're in the private channel btw, let's not have discussions here
Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 23:35:22 - tomberek: Cool. That was our initial justification, so I was hoping it panned out.
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 15:54:54 - infinisil: Just had a meeting essentially by myself.. (DavHau joined, though he couldn't really speak)
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 15:55:08 - infinisil: Something needs to change, this doesn't work for me
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 15:56:12 - infinisil: Neither did anybody other than DavHau fill out their availability in the above link. I wanted to schedule the merge for the next RFC 140 milestone today..
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 15:57:43 - infinisil: It's generally fine to not join meetings, but at least say so in advance, I think I'm sending enough reminders
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 15:58:25 - infinisil: Suggestions welcome
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 18:45:23 - infinisil: @room ^
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 20:02:03 - infinisil: I'm favoring to disband the team officially. We can migrate the GitHub issues to the Nixpkgs repo and maybe add a "Nixpkgs architecture" label. GitHub org is archived. Let the public Matrix channel as is, the private one is deleted.
The one thing we'd lose is that there's no group of people to ping for specific issues, but that was barely used anyways so 🤷
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 23:55:51 - tomberek: I think a part of the NAT difficulties was due to the nature of the by-name project. It's possible other efforts would be easier to become and stay motivated for, drive further involvement, and make it more of a team effort. (that being said, infinisil , your dedication has been impressive and appreciated )
Tue, Jan 9, 2024, 23:59:22 - Robert Hensing (roberth): Well clearly there already is no team then. I could give two excuses for me missing it this time, but that's besides the point.
Wed, Jan 10, 2024, 00:00:32 - Robert Hensing (roberth): I think a group like a github "team" would be more appropriate for the amount of resources and commitment we have among these people
Wed, Jan 10, 2024, 20:12:49 - infinisil: <@tomberek:matrix.org "I think a part of the NAT diffic..."> `by-name` is _easy_ compared to the mess that has yet to be cleaned up, we picked it as a starting point because of that. It's not gonna get easier than that.
Wed, Jan 10, 2024, 20:14:45 - infinisil: Though I did lay a lot of the foundation with the tooling, so it might actually get easier in that way
Wed, Jan 10, 2024, 23:45:58 - John Ericson: appreciate the later time on this one
Wed, Jan 10, 2024, 23:46:04 - John Ericson: that will help me as I am guaranteed to be awake
Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 13:22:59 - Robert Hensing (roberth): <@roberthensing:matrix.org "Well clearly there already is no..."> This was a bit cynical of me. We did have a team during what were two projects: establishing and prioritizing architectural issues, and 140. The first was a project of its own and not a continuous activity, and the latter did not match the skill set of the team, while (only) one member was funded to do the work. We did not come up with a suitable next task for the team, making subsequent meetings largely pointless.
Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 13:25:33 - Robert Hensing (roberth): So what *should* the next team activity be? I don't think we realized that (1) was a project, so we didn't actually try to complete it. What did we actually deliver? We've produced a lot of knowledge, but we did not deliver it.
Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 13:29:57 - Robert Hensing (roberth): I think we should write a report about our findings and recommendations, including links to ongoing discussions (issues presumably), or ideally write coherent design documentation instead of a point-in-time report.
Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 17:27:02 - infinisil: Robert Hensing (roberth): Personally I think writing reports is largely a waste of time. It distracts from actual work to move us forward
Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 17:27:40 - Robert Hensing (roberth): Yeah, it's point-in-time, just like RFCs. Better to write docs.
Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 17:27:40 - infinisil: I guess it could make more people interested in helping out
Thu, Jan 11, 2024, 17:27:55 - Robert Hensing (roberth): ^ this.
Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 17:27:42 - infinisil: @room We discussed the future of the team in todays meeting, here's my immediate proposal, please give a 👍️ if that sounds fine to you:
- Archive @nixpkgs-architecture on GitHub
- Remove the [official team page](https://nixos.org/community/teams/nixpkgs-architecture.html)
- Migrate issues from [the Nixpkgs architecture issue tracker](https://github.com/nixpkgs-architecture/issues) to the Nixpkgs repo
- Create "architecture" label and label all Nixpkgs architecture issues with it
- Create @NixOS/nixpkgs-architecture with at least me in it, anybody is free to join this GitHub team. It doesn't give any responsibilities or authority, it's just there for pings.
- Archive this private Matrix room and publish its history in a GitHub repo under @nixpkgs-architecture
- Keep the public Matrix room, only updating the topic to reflect the above
tomberek
Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 18:30:00 - tomberek: My preference is to keep the team. Additional labels and organizational restructuring is helpful, but would like to try gathering additional resources and alternative approaches prior to disbanding.
Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 18:52:25 - infinisil: tomberek: Can you do that?
Tue, Feb 6, 2024, 18:55:11 - infinisil: I'm looking for a concrete counter-proposal
Fri, Mar 1, 2024, 16:20:28 - tomberek set a profile picture
Mon, Mar 4, 2024, 22:13:50 - infinisil: @room Tomorrow is another NAT meeting. tomberek's previous concerns are now at least partially addressed with the new developments of making Nix organisation more open (see https://github.com/orgs/nix-open-org/repositories), which will make it easier to establish a more privileged Nixpkgs team in the future.
So again, I'm intending on shutting down this team as explained above for the very same reasons as before. Considering that nobody other than tomberek replied within 4 weeks, I'll have to assume that this is fine with everybody..
Wed, Mar 6, 2024, 18:22:54 - John Ericson: I was on vacation this last meeting (still am). In general, I support your decision
infinisil. If you want to archive it, then so be it. I know it's frustrating but also I hope you feel very accomplished with the by-name work because it was and is a big success.
Thu, Mar 7, 2024, 01:21:34 - infinisil: @room I drafted a comprehensive conclusion and prospective for the team. I'll post it on Discourse later this week. Feel free to review it before that: https://pad.lassul.us/uIi7xeSJTW6LJUEHulZgVQ?edit
Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 13:16:14 - DavHau: Sorry for not being present the last couple of meetings. Too many things are going on in my life at the same time. I can understand your decision. There is no reason to put in the organization overhead if there is not much input from most members. I definitely appreciate all your work, I just didn't manage to participate in a meaningful way. I hope you will continue your amazing work, just in a more efficient way from now on. I think what I learned from this experience is that it's hard to get a focused effort out of a team that consists of volunteers. Despite all of us being passionate about nix, not being paid for that work just makes it hard to commit on larger long term projects. If a team like this was ever created again, maybe it makes sense to require members to commit for a full work-day each week (and have that allocated for tasks). Even if it might turn out to be less than that, the idea behind is, if someone doesn't have the funds or the time to commit for that amount of time, it's probably unlikely to get any long-term commitment out of them either. Just my idea about it, i might be wrong afterall.
Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 16:51:59 - infinisil: DavHau: Thanks for the thoughts!
Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 16:52:41 - infinisil: Yeah that was kind of the idea with the package modules working group, where we asked members to dedicate "some hours" every week. Ended up not working out either though 😅
Fri, Mar 8, 2024, 16:54:18 - infinisil: I now have the go from everybody, so I'll go ahead with the plan soon.
Note that this channel's history will be publicly archived in some nixpkgs-architecture repo