-
Notifications
You must be signed in to change notification settings - Fork 2.1k
New issue
Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.
By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.
Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account
Grant: Substrate Tokenomics Survey #1348
Conversation
Substrate Tokenomics - The state of (rational) play Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Thanks for the application. Feel free to remove all the parts of the template that are not relevant to a research application. We need to come up with a different template for research-focused applications. This way, it will be easier to understand.
Apart from this, I will share your application with a few additional people for more feedback. One initial feedback from me is that the application is quite expensive, and it might be easier to initially apply for a smaller grant so that we can get a better understanding of your work.
I think this would be a valuable addition to the space, but the price does seem rather expensive. |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Also, could you add the overview section: https://github.com/w3f/Grants-Program/blob/master/applications/application-template.md#overview-1 ?
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
Done, and I've cleaned out non-research elements from the milestones.
A couple of things will help a lot:
I'll wait the other reviewer feedback to see where you all land before revising scope etc. |
Thanks for the application. After reading it, I struggle to see the clear scope and contribution of this study. As far as I understand, you intend to "[...] provide a creative synthesis of existing token-economy research" of the Polkadot parachains? How would that look like? You state that you do this by reviewing their whitepapers, and published/working papers. While many of the former exist, rigorous (academic) token economic research is mostly absent. From the existing whitepapers, most parts focus on the usecases and initial distribution schemes. The token economics is mostly limited to some arbitrarly defined inflation rate which is split between collators and potentially stakers (if existing). As another dimension of your analysis, you mention different types of tokens. I'd not expect much other tokens than utility tokens that pay for transaction fees, are used in governance for voting and/or might be used for staking. Other token types are virtually absent as they'd constitute clear securities. You also state that you will not be answering "[...] any particular token-economy design question". Further, I am also missing details on how you intend to analyse the situation with respect to the rational expectations equilibrium. The high price-tag and those open points make me question the contribution of the study and thereby how much it is needed. In the case I've misinterpreted your approach, could you further elaborate? |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Thank you for the application. I'll describe below the points that raised my attention after reading it. Hope to hear from you about them soon.
What will be the methodology planned for searching papers in the following categories?
- Published articles
- Working papers
- Polkadot parachain whitepapers
If you gonna plan the methodology as part of the grant work, please include that as a deliverable. Is common to use systematic approaches for doing academic literature reviews, such as systematic reviews or systematic mappings. This increase the confidence in the review. Working papers and whitepapers are considered grey literature and could have another approach for searching.
There is only one researcher doing all the work. How would you deal with researcher bias in the data collection/extraction for the papers in this case?
The current (incomplete) list of research to be investigated has some papers that are not from Polkadot ecosystem, such as Bitcoin. Why that? They will be used for comparison as related work? As for related work I think is fine. However, as papers to read and extract data for analysis make sure that your research as stated "A survey of some economic models used to develop Substrate (Dotsama) blockchain/token economies" include only Substrate (Dotsama) ecosystem. As far as I understood, the research is about already done Substrate (Dotsama) ecosystem tokenomics helping new projects with the knowledge of previous ones. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Deliverables:
We are developing an appropriate template for research grant submission. This is working in progress and should be ready soon. My apologies to have to deal with an inappropriate template for deliverables in a research grant. To summarize, the main deliverable for a research grant is the knowledge generated by the research, which should be transferred to the audience in some format, in your case a research paper. In this way, the final delivery from the grant should be the full paper available online somewhere (a preprint on arxiv.org would be enough). The deliverables in your application are most research questions. What would be expecting to receive in those deliverables? Text, tables, methodology, all of them? It is unclear to me the format of the deliverable and if all prerequisites to evaluate them will be present (methodology, raw data, analysis procedures, text describing the results). Usually, research projects are organized and developed in this order (could be different in your case): goals definition, methodology definition, execution, raw results extraction, data analysis, comparison with related work, complete the writing of the paper, and publishing. Could you please explain what will be the process that you will follow to perform the research and how they are time-based- related to your milestone deliveries planned? The milestones should be time-based in the order of delivery.
Researcher Profile, could you please provide a profile in at least one research indexer (Google Scholar, Researchgate, or another one)? This is just to have your publication record.
Regarding the price, could elaborate more about the formation and rationale behind the price charged?
As best I can infer/guess... the comparable you have in mind is Milestone 1 of Uncollateralized Stablecoin Research Correct? It is listed in the Under Development folder, since July 2021, for a 1 month activity - so I suspect I've misunderstood something. Is there any way to track the status of that development? |
Context to proposed budget: I'll revise taking the above feedback into account. |
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
I've added methodology to the Milestone 1 deliverables.
This exercise will be closest to a "Rapid Review", see Grant MJ, Booth A. A typology of reviews: an analysis of 14 review types and associated methodologies. Health Info Libr J. 2009 Jun;26(2):91-108. doi: 10.1111/j.1471-1842.2009.00848.x. Review. PubMed PMID: 19490148.
I have adjusted the source of the research to eliminate myself as a source of bias in the collection of research papers.
That is great. This application targets the current template requirements, since that is all that is known.
This was addressed under Future Plans:
I've repeated the detail in the final milestone.
I've attempted to address these questions. Please let me know if anything further is required.
|
I've tried to clarify this point.
The presence/absence of rigorous (academic) token economic research is the subject of this survey.
I currently share this assessment. But, I'm not persuaded this state-of-affairs is because richer ideas don't exist.
As above.
The (regulatory) thinking in this area/topic is muddled. I intend to leave aside the question of whether a token would be subject to a regulator's claim. Consequently, I've clarified that what is/not considered a security is out of scope.
Correct, this is a survey, hence limited to what the existing literature addresses. Within the scope of the deliverables, I am not committing to solving any particular token-economy design question.
I use REE to delimit the scope of the general token-economy research literature. The REE framework naturally suggests some features of an economy, and I've now indicated where that is. I had given an outline of the approach when justifying the exclusion of cryptocurrencies. Let me know if the changes don't address a particular point to your satisfaction. |
@taqtiqa-mark thank you for your answers. After we started this application review, we approved a new template for research grants application. Would you mind adjusting your application to this new template? I think there will be a few changes but especially in the deliverables section, we will have a better structure. Regarding your answers:
For now, I'll wait for my colleagues to circle back to their comments. Let me know if you plan to adjust the application to the new template. |
I'll also wait on their feedback before moving to the new template. |
This pull request has been mentioned on Polkadot Forum. There might be relevant details there: https://forum.polkadot.network/t/polkadot-the-centralized-decentralized-ecosystem/1412/7 |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Sorry for the late response here. I missed the updates for some reason. First, I noticed that you changed the level to 2, but the application is still above 30k, see https://github.com/w3f/Grants-Program#rooster-level-3 Could you update this? I personally would still favor a smaller initial grant application for 30k or less. This way, we also get a better impression of your work and could potentially sign follow-up grants. Regarding the RFP, it was indeed already implemented a while ago, and we forgot to update it here. I just fixed it. The price itself on the RFP was copy-pasted from another RFP. In the end, we paid the following for it: https://github.com/w3f/Grants-Program/blob/master/applications/stardust.md, and the team actually worked a lot more on it than only two weeks. The on-chain IPFS grants @ 15K USD/month was highly controversial internally and was only accepted because of the other work by TDSoftware.
Regarding the research itself, I think one concern that we currently have is that researching the current state, especially for this amount, might not be so helpful. I agree that this might be the starting point, but ideally, as the next step (follow-up grant), potential solutions or improvements are researched/developed.
Hi @taqtiqa-mark friendly reminder to look at the requested changes above. Thanks! |
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
405e310
to
918cb67
Compare
I've updated the application to use the new research template. |
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
Thanks for the update. I'm happy to go ahead with it and mark it as ready for review.
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I added some comments/requests in the body of the application. I think now the proposal is a more informal paper (working paper). Is that right? I made some comments considering the formalism of research papers. If the focus of the paper has changed, let me know and some of my comments regarding methodology could not be applicable. There are other comments that need to be fixed anyway.
@dsm-w3f , thanks for the detailed feedback. It will help if you can add Blocking: before each detail that is blocking approval, and break it into a separate paragraph. Re the search - I'm surprised you had access, unless you are a resident of NSW? To confirm, they took about a week to respond? That was the time frame I was advised. Did they indicate which of the databases they searched? |
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
@taqtiqa-mark thank you for your answer.
I expect that all be resolved/answered before my approval.
I just used the link that you posted. For me is just a search engine, Is it something different from that? Why use a service that is not freely available to anyone? Any advantage to using this service? |
I've resolved all the issues I can. I've asked @Noc2 to resolve the only open issue - unless you do so you're self.
This is the debate about the subscription vs surveillance business models.
These databases provide impact factors which are used in the selection criteria you have been reading for some time now. While flawed they are useful as an initial quality filter that is not biased against the newest research. |
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
Signed-off-by: Mark Van de Vyver <mark@taqtiqa.com>
There was a problem hiding this comment.
Choose a reason for hiding this comment
The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.
I'm happy to support you application.
Congratulations and welcome to the Web3 Foundation Grants Program! Please refer to our Milestone Delivery repository for instructions on how to submit milestones and invoices, our FAQ for frequently asked questions and the support section of our README for more ways to find answers to your questions. |
I expect a delay of a week or two wrt Milestone 1: It has taken a while to disentangle what blockchain token economy features arise from non-discretionary chain properties (Substrate requirements) and what are discretionary (Polkadot implementation choices). The good news is that, so far, the problematic features are discretionary and can be elided wlog. The bad news is the descriptions will have to be by reference to Substrate - otherwise the text will read as criticisms/refutation of claims that DOT is not a security, and distract from the objective - bringing to light tools/technology applicable to designing a token-economy. |
Project Abstract
A survey of some economic models used to develop Substrate (Dotsama) blockchain/token economies.
The published literature will be from the rational expectations equilibrium (a.k.a. no-arbitrage) approach to economic analysis.
Grant level
Application Checklist
project_name.md
).